Arras?

Discussion in 'Crossbow Bolts & Broadheads' started by jacol84, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. jacol84

    jacol84 Active Member

    Don't know if you guys are interested in getting a discussion going on arrows or not. To me, it seems to be the most important part of crossbow shooting and accuracy. I know Cal and some others shoot 2219 aluminum, and I'd like to try that someday. I have shot GT Laser 2s, Laser 2 pros (indexed), Black Eagle Executioners (.oo1 indexed and .003 non-indexed), Black Eagle Zombies, and Spynal Tapps. Reading a thread on C/T about spine indexed/matched Tapps, I'm reluctant to bring my experiences in shooting spine indexed arrows up over there with a very active sponsor and all. As mentioned in another thread, I have often had to turn arrows off the indicated cock vane to get broadheads to shoot on the spot. I won't put an arrow/head combo into a hunting quiver unless I KNOW that it shoots repeatedly where I want it to go. My experiences seem to deviate from the norm in terms of what I have to do to get that to happen. My life experiences tell my I ain't that good, but I'm darn persistent. Thought it might be fun to talk crossbow/arrows some. Most of the traffic lately is off-topic.;) I guess if you guys disagree, this thread will drop like a stone.:oops:
     
    Stalker, bbahunter and Jack Pine like this.
  2. Jack Pine

    Jack Pine Active Member

    I'll be happy to talk about arrows with ya Jeff, but by far and away most will disagree with what I say about arrows. I hate carbon arrows. To me, carbon arrows are prima donnas that have to have special treatment or they won't work right. I don't have time for all the special this and that they require, and being a tightwad, I'm not going to pay ridiculous prices for arrows.
    My grievance with carbon arrows:
    Expense
    Inconsistency in thickness, straightness, spine, weight, etc.
    Time and effort required to make them shoot. And every once in a while, absolutely nothing you can do to it will make it right.
    They don't seem to be any more rugged than aluminum on bad or missed shots.
    Unless you pay the long dollar to buy pre-assembled arrows from arrow specialists, they require things like spine testers, brass inserts, a certain amount of FOC, special nocks, and all that. I just want to shoot my bow and have the arrow go where it's supposed to if I've done my part. I shake my head at all the discussions and problems and special needs of carbon arrows, and I really don't want that much complication in my life. The process they are made by almost guarantees they will have a lot of variances in them, so yah, if you have hundreds to choose from, you can weight, spine match, and spine index enough to be close to each other.
    One reason why I think there is so much talk about carbon arrows is, that's what almost every bow manufacturer packages with their bows. These Asian-built shafts are dirt cheap and they shoot like it unless they are handled to find the spine. As I mentioned, unless you pay the long dollar to pay someone to do all the required stuff to make them work decent, you can buy 6 carbon arrows, but only about 4 shoot good, the other 2 ending up as stumpers or garden stakes, which increases the already exorbitant prices of the other 4 shooters.
    Another reason why so much discussion about carbon arrows is there are so many noobs coming to crossbows and who just don't know anything at all about arrows. This was hard for me to comprehend because I tend to think everyone has about the same level of experience as I do, but that's not the case as evidenced by their posts.
    Another reason for all the talk about carbon arrows is, some people just love to drop brand names, it might make them feel like they are part of some select group, and another reason is, many of these discussions are driven by people who have a vested interest in selling carbon arrows or making components for them.
    I don't like the way they shoot, I don't like what they cost, I don't like all the fooling around and experimentation required to get them to be consistent, and I don't like the way they groove when shot out of a lot of bows with aluminum rails. I don't like the difficulty to strip the old vanes, and getting all the old glue off them without gouging the shaft. I don't like that [until recently with low temp glue] I can't use hot melt glue on them, and I'm leery of soaking the shafts in acetone to remove the residual fletching cement.
    In short, there is nothing positive I can find about carbon arrows.
    What I like about aluminum:
    It's already comparatively inexpensive, and with my Micro bows I can make 2 arrows out of 1 shaft.
    Except for the possibility of using lighted nocks, they are not FOC sensitive at all; a 100 grain head with a standard aluminum insert is all that is required for repeatable accuracy.
    I don't need to buy or experiment with special inserts to increase FOC; it's pretty much a non-factor.
    I don't need to be concerned about spine or indexing, so I don't need that piece of equipment for Easton XX75 shafts.
    There are soft aluminum shafts that are worse than carbon IMO, so many shooters might get the wrong idea about aluminum shafts by shooting Asian-built aluminum and not knowing it. They don't know the difference, and shooting the cheap aluminum gives aluminum a bad name. Some of those shafts are so soft, they bend just by hitting the target, and they are not accurate. There IS a difference; an aluminum tube does not mean it's an arrow!
    If you know what to look for, you will be able to identify the "fusion line" on an XX75 shaft. Put your cock vane there and that's all the concern about spine needed.
    XX75 shafts are repeatably accurate right out of the box, and you don't need to buy an arrow saw to cut them, a common pipe cutter for a few $ does an excellent job. Commonly available components work fine in them, no brass needed, but I will say I have never tried brass inserts in XX75 shafts, simply because I have never needed to. Even though I bought and shot my first crossbow in 1968-69, and shot verts way before that, I never even heard of FOC until I started reading about carbon arrows. I had to ask someone what it was. I was like a bumblebee; according to body weight, wing size, etc, scientists have concluded that it ought to be impossible for them to fly. They just don't know any better and fly anyway. Introducing a bunch of aerodynamic laws might add to the discussion, but in the case of the bee, it isn't going to improve on anything. I like it simple and have found with Easton XX75, I have accurate arrows with a minimum of effort, and every one is a shooter! The bottom line here is, it doesn't really matter what you shoot if you are happy with it, but if you aren't happy, try XX75.
    LOL Jeff, I bet you wish you hadn't brought this subject up LOL.
     
    bbahunter likes this.
  3. Masboy

    Masboy Active Member

    Well said Cal you about summed things up ,I can get about any arrows to shoot good ,but find less good ones per dozen on cheaper ones.just give me executioners,zombies,xx75,super slams an I,m a happy camper . I also put the cock vane on aluminum arrow seam an not sure if it even makes a difference? I just shoot each arrow an tinker with it if it,s off alittle from fletching ,spine,whatever an if that don,t work trash it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    Jack Pine likes this.
  4. bbahunter

    bbahunter Active Member

    Good info JP, i will probably try some aluminum arrows out of my Kodabow at some point, been wanting to just haven't got around to it.
     
    Jack Pine likes this.
  5. Jack Pine

    Jack Pine Active Member

    Frank, I don't know if putting the cock vane on the fusion line really makes any difference either. Since I happily don't own a spine tester, I have no way of knowing if that's the stiffest or weakest point, but all things being equal, it ought to have about the same characteristic on every shaft. What it is, is a point of consistency, and that's the beauty of the XX75 shaft; I really think you could fletch them anywhere on the shaft and still have a consistent shooter, but I like the idea of having a place I can recognize to put the cock vane on.
     
    bbahunter likes this.
  6. jacol84

    jacol84 Active Member

    Cal, thanks. Exactly what I was hoping for. We started out with aluminum 2216 Easton "Crossbow Hunter" arrows. They were great until I converted my Vixen to a frankenbow. Within a month of shooting them out of that bow, they all were bent, while they had stayed straight for several years up to that point. Used GT Laser 2 from Danny Miller that shot well in light draw (175#) recurves, but would not group broadheads very well with the frankenbow (225#). I got Executioners at that point, and I've been very pleased with them in every crossbow I've tried (270# SS, 240# bba mag) I have yet to try them with the Patriot, but there are a dozen of the Spynal Tapps (the premier, none better shaft, according to several forum experts.) I understand spine indexing. It makes sense, and I can see where carbon could vary around the shaft more than aluminum. In my vertical days, I built a spine tester. After testing ACC aluminum/carbon against all carbons, I concluded that I probably should have saved the money I spent on the spine tester, and just bought more ACCs.;) The thing I've noticed is that all of them (GTs, Executioners, and even the Tapps) had arrows that needed to be turned from the tested, indexed spine marks. Not sure if that is compensating for something about the crossbow (though some have zero measurable tiller issues), whether I'm making a one mistake compensate for another:confused:, whether the "dynamic spine" is different from the "static spine", or whether the guy doing the spine testing in the shop was distracted or in too much of a hurry. I'd have to say the most work I did with shafts was getting the .003 non spine-indexed shafts to all hit the spot, but with rotaing and refletching, they all will hit a 2" spot with a Slick Trick at 50 yards. I know there are guys who swear you don't have to shoot broadheads to practice with, as long as they weigh the same as field points, and spin straight. I won't go hunting with arrows and heads that won't hit that spot again and again. I know some guys that shoot only broadheads. Since I have no need for a crossbow this year, maybe I will invest in a dozen xx75s. Like you, I'd be able to have then cut exactly in half and they would be long enough to use with BABU. It would be nice to be able to do and see a comparison.
     
    Jack Pine likes this.
  7. Jack Pine

    Jack Pine Active Member

    My thoughts exactly.
     
  8. tpcollins

    tpcollins Member

    I made a concentricity checker for my linear press with ball bearing cradles and a dial indicator with a .01 mm scale - that's .0004" graduations. It's amazing how straight some used XX78 shafts still are that I got off fleabay.
     
  9. Oppie

    Oppie Active Member

    But I thought the more I spent the more better arrow I got :D. I do know fiberglass were the worst arrows ever....
    Continual on, I'm paying attention:)
     
  10. jacol84

    jacol84 Active Member

    So, I felt compelled to add to this (mis) adventure this morning. Oddly, no field work today, though we have to get the rest of our corn in this week. Went to the range, and found out that I wasn't totally off my rocker last Monday. I did have to turn each of the Tapps to the "wrong" vane to get the broadheads to shoot where the field points do. :confused: With some, shooting on the marked cock vane was only off about 1-1.5" at 40. With others, it was more. Five of the six will hit (repeatedly) a less than 2" spot at 40 with either Muzzys or STs. Didn't bother with Ramcats today, they have always showed the least deviation/grouping issues of any "fixed" heads for me. One arrow (#2) shot between 2 and 3" left no matter how I turned it. I decided to try the double banded Jak Hammer to see if it shot that right. That was a mistake. I found out that when you shoot a double banded Jak Hammer a few times, it's probably a good idea put new bands on it, especially if you are going to hit the arrow in the nock with 290#. :eek: Predeployed, shot a foot left, skipped off the grass into a big block of concrete that, for some reason, the club put into the woods behind the field and directly behind the 40 yard targets. Smashed arrow and head. I now have 1 (ONE) Jak Hammer 100 gr. broadhead and a package of replacement blades. Anyone wants that, it's yours! This was the only arrow of the 6 that didn't shoot with the others, so now I guess I can stop worrying about it.;) Gotta focus on the positive. I have 5 arrows that will shoot dead on with open broadheads at 40. I cocked and shot the Patriot at least 50 times this morning and still feel fine.:) I know I can use Ramcats and probably Grizz Tricks with this rig and be fine. Not sure if I will continue to look for a big cut mechanical or just leave it be. I thought about Spitfire Tiple X, but I've read that Spitfire retention clips wear out in a few shots. Guys seem to like Rage Hypos, but that seems like dropping down in total cut to me. Maybe I will still try those FOC heads.:eek:

    Now, there are 6 .001 Zombies downstairs that aren't spine indexed. Next experiment is going the Masboy route. Bare shaft testing, then fletching them up with some SK 300s and see what we get. I have 3 crossbows I could use them with.;)
     
    bbahunter and Oppie like this.
  11. Jack Pine

    Jack Pine Active Member

    They do indeed wear out in a few shots Jeff, but there are a few work-arounds I have used to overcome that.
    #1 take the clips out and put them back in after you are done practicing. Put one or two 1/8" dental bands on to hold the blades.
    #2 take a dull nail and refresh the dimple in the clips.
    #3 just use bands to begin with and don't worry about the clips at all. I band all Spitfires anyway, whether they are new or not.
     
    Stalker and jacol84 like this.
  12. Oppie

    Oppie Active Member

    That works for Masboy.

    I made the switch to carbons in my vertical bow days, they bent less when I missed & shot em into the ground from a elevated deck. My first Excal came with a mixed bunch of arrows and had some 2217's that I liked quite well and I've cut down some of my old shafts an used them just fine.
    I tend to lose more arrows than I break with carbons which basically means if I behave, my arrows will last forever, almost.
     
    8ptbuk and jacol84 like this.
  13. jacol84

    jacol84 Active Member

    Carbons will wear down, at least some of them. I remember having to be one of the "early adopters" when Easton came out with the Axis arrows. They didn't shoot too bad, but after 6 months of shooting them, they had warped enough to look like crap on an arrow spinner. As I recall, the Easton/Beman C2 process was bad for that.

    I have looked for XX75s, and they are not all that easy to find. I have to get the shafts and inserts from Lancaster, and nocks from Wyvern. Wyvern and SSAS don't even carry aluminum.
     
    bbahunter and Jack Pine like this.
  14. Oppie

    Oppie Active Member

    I feel most any well made arrow will shot decent out of most crossbows, but some of the Big Fellows on the forums like to promote certain brands for whatever reasons, mostly money. Many sportsmen line up to give away their money because someone has declared a certain brand is so much better than the others without ever trying anything else.
    Here's a arrow test a buddy did for me, Oh i was supposed to shoot at the target :eek: ?? The block of wood is old locust, about as hard as my buddy's forehead......
    The arrow survived after a hour of chipping an cutting it back out.

    arrow test.jpg
     
  15. Jack Pine

    Jack Pine Active Member

    I've been buying them off fleabay for the last several years Jeff, there always seems to be some there, but with the free shipping on orders over $49, I think my next dozen will be from Lancaster as well.
     
    jacol84 likes this.
  16. 8ptbuk

    8ptbuk Member

    Quality Carbon for me .
     
  17. 8ptbuk

    8ptbuk Member

    Spine Indexed Quality carbon for Me.
     
  18. xcaliber

    xcaliber Active Member

    I like the Carbon arrows, have had good luck with Gold Tips, but went to Black Eagle Zombie Slayers, and use only .003" straightness, build my own, and must be just damn lucky. I only shoot to 50 yards or less, but never really see flyers out of a dozen. I'm only looking for consistent 3" off sticks, and shoot mostly free hand, they work for me. I recently went to a setup from NuFletch whereas you cut your arrows 3" shorter and install the "Ape Tails which feature a slide in vane tail end with lighted nock. i was skeptical with these at at first because even with 110 grains of brass in the snout, and 125 grain heads, I'm not very heavy in FOC, i think it was 9% but total weight around 524 grains, very hard hitting, and accurate. I'm committed to going this upcoming season to review them.
     
    Jack Pine, jacol84 and 8ptbuk like this.
  19. Masboy

    Masboy Active Member

    As far as spine testing ,weighing,squaring anything you can do to make everyone close to the same has to help,but does not mean they will shoot the same. I find weight , foc difference within a few grains makes very little difference in accuracy,poi at hunting ranges. going from 100g tip to a 125g most times makes only 1/2 inch difference in poi drop at 30yd for me.

    I can shoot different arrows made the same from a dozen with each having a different poi an both will still poke the same hole at 20yd most time for groups from the bench rest. sometimes I can tinker with a arrow an get it close to others an sometimes not. when someone gets arrows figured out let me know. I like any arrow that will shoot accurate with field points ,fixed broadheads.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
    xcaliber, bbahunter and jacol84 like this.
  20. xcaliber

    xcaliber Active Member

    If i may, the hunter, or shooter has to decide what works for them. I'm not picky, but i am demanding, and willing to put in the time to decide what I think works for my needs. There are many folks that like this & that, but sometimes i think honestly they are just going with the wind. I like to try stuff, I like to "F" with stuff. I really like to rub against the grain If i feel other options just might give an edge. I'm not trying to best anyone, let's get that cleared up straight away. What I seek is the best I can do for the least amount of money. If more dough is required fine, I just want to know what & why it is needed.
     
    Stalker and jacol84 like this.

Share This Page